Peplau's Ghost
Psychiatric-Mental Health Nurse Practitioners (PMHNP) discussing using psychotherapy within their practice. Four PMHNP program directors and a biostatistician from across the Unites States sharing their passion on how psychotherapy can help people with nearly all their emotional problems.
Peplau's Ghost
Bridging Research and Practice: The Value of PhD-Prepared Psychiatric Nurses, Dr Kate Melino
Crossing the finish line of a doctoral program leaves an unexpected void—a "phantom limb" where dissertation deadlines once lived. In this candid conversation with newly-minted Dr. Kate Melino, we explore the transformative journey of pursuing a PhD in psychiatric mental health nursing and the surprising discoveries that emerged from her research.
Dr. Melino's work uncovered a startling revelation: despite over 30 million Americans receiving care in community mental health centers across the country, almost no research examines these critical settings or the practitioners who serve there. Her research illuminates how psychiatric mental health nurse practitioners (PMHNPs) creatively navigate institutional barriers—sometimes literally leaving clinics to check on patients in encampments—to deliver holistic care that addresses not just symptoms, but the social and structural determinants affecting their patients' wellbeing.
The conversation shifts to the age-old question facing nursing students: DNP or PhD? Drawing from their collective experience, our panel offers refreshingly practical guidance. As Dr. Melino explains, "If you want to make change at the institutional level, DNP is for you. If you want to answer questions that don't have answers yet, consider PhD." Meanwhile, Dr. Sean Convoy shares his mentor's wisdom: "It comes down to your identity—do you see yourself as a clinician first and leader second, or a researcher first who builds knowledge over time?"
We also discuss groundbreaking survey findings revealing how psychotherapy skills—a cornerstone of psychiatric nursing practice—are being underutilized in today's healthcare settings, potentially contributing to overprescribing issues. As the hosts share their diverse experiences navigating doctoral education while balancing personal lives and responsibilities, they offer invaluable insights for anyone considering advanced nursing education.
Whether you're contemplating doctoral study, curious about the state of mental healthcare research, or interested in the evolving role of PMHNPs, this episode offers both inspiration and practical wisdom from those who've walked the path before you.
Let’s Connect
Dr Dan Wesemann
Email: daniel-wesemann@uiowa.edu
Website: https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/dnp-programs/psych-mental-health-nurse-practitioner
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-wesemann
Dr Kate Melino
Email: Katerina.Melino@ucsf.edu
Dr Sean Convoy
Email: sc585@duke.edu
Dr Kendra Delany
Email: Kendra@empowered-heart.com
Dr Melissa Chapman
Email: mchapman@pdastats.com
Yeah, just my take on things. My answer to number two decrease until they cease. Don't stop at a discovery. Identify a challenge in your beliefs.
Speaker 2:Welcome everybody Back for another episode of Pep Lau's Ghost. All right, we're back. If you're listening to this in 2026, you may not know this, but we did have a little break. We're calling it kind of our 2025 spring break, or at least I'm calling it that. But we're back and we're really excited to kind of have an exciting new kind of format where we don't actually have an external guest.
Speaker 2:I'll say We'll have an internal guest, dr Kate Molina. We've mentioned a little bit on the podcast that she just recently got her PhD and so we wanted to celebrate that a little bit and kind of find out about her journey and really just kind of have her share a little bit about you know how this kind of came about and where this may be taking her and such, and maybe we'll talk about some other things too. But I'm also here with Dr Sean Conboy and Dr Melissa Chapman-Hayes who are here as well. So let's just get into it, kate. You know how's the world and maybe let's start from the end, kind of work our way backwards. How's the world feel without having assignments and you know, dissertation drafts kind of do every so often?
Speaker 3:So, yeah, thank you, dan, and thanks for the opportunity to be interviewed on our esteemed podcast. You know I think I mentioned to you maybe when we started together a couple weeks ago I almost feel like I have a phantom limb. Um, you know, after four years of of having this other thing to do, all the always in the back of my mind, it feels really strange actually, uh, to truly have my weekends to myself and, you know, not be waking up in the middle of the night with ideas that I feel like I need to write down. So I think it. I think it is a bit of an adjustment period, but it's wonderful, really happy to be done.
Speaker 2:I think. You know, even though this is an audio podcast, I will share with the listeners. You know, your hair seems let down a little more.
Speaker 3:I mean there's a little more bounce in it.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I'm just kind of thinking of Kate before she got this done and it just your hair was all kind of bound up. So so, yeah, I think you know stress comes out in many different ways, right? And so so you know this is an interesting the question I would like to ask you and thinking about, you know, being able to talk to you and spend some time kind of diving into this. You definitely had a choice here and, and, and obviously Sean and I have our DNPs. You know the choice in nursing is always DNP and PhD. So maybe just kind of share that. Why did you pick the PhD route? You had your master's and things like that. Maybe you know just kind of talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's such a great question, dan, and I'm happy to talk about that. So yeah, as you mentioned, I had been a master's prepared nurse practitioner for several years. I was a psych RN for several years before I went back to school and got my NP degree. And I guess there were a couple of things. One was I had always been really fortunate to have exposure to working with nurse researchers from even when I was before I was a nurse. Actually, my very first full-time job after my initial undergraduate degree was at the Professional Nursing Association in Ontario, canada, which is where I'm originally from, and I was. I got hired as the research assistant in their health and nursing policy department. I was like 22 years old and I met so many incredible nurses there, nurses who had had these, these amazing careers, worked all over the world, been really involved in various change and producing evidence-based best practice guidelines, and I really admired them and they were really the people who inspired me to go back to school and become a nurse.
Speaker 3:And since I did that, I've been working in psych nursing the entire time and I was really fortunate to be able to work in various labs with nurse researchers who were doing really cool stuff.
Speaker 3:So I feel like I had a window into that from pretty early on and I also knew that I really liked writing.
Speaker 3:I actually liked writing grants and editing manuscripts and all these sorts of things that, you know, is not necessarily a popular thing to do.
Speaker 3:So it was always kind of in the back of my mind. And then the other thing I think that really helped me make the distinction was when I was looking at sort of like the, not the outcomes of a DNP versus PhD, but what it really prepares you to do. And I think, as is fairly common for nurse practitioners, particularly maybe psych nurse practitioners, where there aren't so many of us or there weren't so many of us. You know, a few years ago I got thrust into a leadership role very early in my NP career and I had to really kind of learn while I was going about, how to do administration, how to set a budget, how to hire staff, how to train people, how to do QI, and so I kind of felt that I had already learned that a little bit and if I was going to go back to school, I wanted to do something that was totally different and offer a new chapter in my career, and so that's ultimately why I chose the.
Speaker 4:PhD you mentioned. Before we got on, we turned on the recording on that. You know, upon completion of your PhD, you're going to be rolling into, you know, doing a lot more work within a DMP program. I'll share with you my experiences is that there's this perpetual kind of push-pull and the push and pull is valuable but nonetheless it still feels like a push-pull between our PhD-prepared faculty and our DMP-prepared faculty as it relates to that awkward space between you, space between traditional research, science, versus translational work. For a DMP, what's your calculus in terms of being PhD prepared but kind of jumping into a DMP program, kind of straddling that space between research and translational work?
Speaker 3:Yes, I love this question and you know, I actually think that this is where the PhD prepared PMHNP is the ticket, because we have, you know, real clinical on the ground experience that you know we're still practicing, we're very much immersed in the sort of material realities of what's going on there and what needs to be done, and we also have this sort of theoretical research training, and so I actually think that faculty members like us can be a real bridge, not only for student projects you were also mentioning, sean, before we turn on the recording that you know some of your students are working together. I think bringing students in dyads, even bringing PhD learners together with DMP learners, is a fabulous idea but also bridging the gap between, you know, phd prepared faculty who this is not always true, but often, you know, may not be working clinically or haven't for some time and then DMP faculty who are very much immersed in the clinical environment.
Speaker 2:Thanks, yeah, yeah, very cool yeah, and it's a great question because I know a lot of um. You know just, I guess, personally from my experience that sometimes people do struggle with that transition, because I know I've had kind of phd prepared faculty. You know, especially early in their career when they get into a dmp program they kind of have the same level of like a dissertation as a DMP project and they struggle with kind of where that kind of fits in and everything. So you know, do you mind kind of sharing a little bit about what's your dissertation and what you did in your PhD?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and I think it is a perfect segue, actually, because my dissertation work is actually very much concerned with the material realities on the ground of what PMHMPs are doing in their practice and how they are, you know, working with patients to address a lot of what they're facing.
Speaker 3:And so, you know, sort of the genesis of this was I've spent the vast majority of my NP career working in community mental health, and so, you know, in public quote, unquote safety net settings in community-based psychiatric urgent care, outpatient, you know, and so on, and just being so attuned to the fact that so much of what really needed addressing were the social and structural determinants of health, and contrasting that with sort of what the expectation of my practice was, which was mostly to prescribe medication.
Speaker 3:And so, you know, in doing a bit of a literature search on this topic, I was actually really surprised that at least this was true in 2021 when I started. I know there has been more literature since, but there was almost nothing available on PMHMP practice, and not only that, but almost nothing available on the type of care that's available in, you know, community mental health outpatient clinics across the US. In fact, I think one of the only pieces of writing I found was actually back from the 1960s, when they were trying to establish this under JFK, so I was like, wow, that really shocked me. Actually, for the listeners out there, there are more than 30 million Americans who receive care in community mental health centers across the US and no one is doing research on this topic and these clinics have been established to set up or have been established to care for people who are suffering a really great burden of disease in terms of mental illness.
Speaker 2:How does that happen, Kate? How does that happen?
Speaker 3:Gee, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a lot of funding, right, you know, because there's federal funding, there's even state, even local funding. I always think when and again I am not the proficient grant writer that you are, you know I think some people have to have data to get money right. I mean that's usually the case. So where I don't know, I mean again in your travels and kind of you know, uncovering this, you know, I'm just kind of I don't know the question, I mean, why, how can this kind of continue to happen? Like you said, I unfortunately just get to the very cynical part that this is kind of a population that just is underserved and undervalued in our communities, so they don't have a voice and so, but is there other explanations for it?
Speaker 3:I think that's part of it.
Speaker 3:I also wonder about, you know, sort of evaluation at the very local level and whether those that evaluation ever makes it out of the county health department, for example, right.
Speaker 3:So maybe there is a lot of data that just isn't being collected anywhere and isn't being synthesized.
Speaker 3:I think that's totally possible. You know, it was a little bit eye-opening I won't say the Department of Public Health that I was working with, but just, you know, for their sake. But it was pretty clear when I sought ethics approval with them that I was the only researcher who had been looking to do this in a very, very long time. So you know, there's lots of room for anybody who wants to get involved in this research space. So essentially my work really focused on, yeah, interviewing and observing psych NPs in practice and you know how they sort of negotiate, I guess you could say, the expectations and requirements of the institution, which is also very much governed by billing and reimbursement, and also getting patients what they really need and all the creativity that goes into doing that and how. I think the way in which we are trained in this sort of like biopsychosocial, holistic nursing model is so much more responsive to what patients need than the very sort of biomedical lens that some other providers bring to this patient population.
Speaker 2:Very cool. I'm dying to know what Melissa's thinking right now. I mean because, again, I know, Melissa, you have your PhD, right, and it's in a different field, but it's very there's a lot of crossover, right. I mean, what are you thinking about now and is this kind of sending you back to when you got your PhD and all the anxiety associated with that?
Speaker 5:Or you know, I just shared a horror story. You know know, a low moment and taking comps, and I didn't even do bad, but I like went to subway or something and they couldn't I can't remember the details but like didn't have something I wanted and it was just kind of like, ah, you know, like, and nothing bad happened. I did great at my comps. It was just, you know, um, that's I. I kind of have like wondering what sustained you through those moments, kate, and maybe it's your why or purpose so you go that route. But also, um, what resonated? Is you talking about, um, where the data is or what's known at that more local level? And that kind of question interests me a lot because we do a lot of work with behavioral health or mental health clinics and then local public health units, and sometimes we need a different framework too. It's not necessarily the frameworks that you would use for other settings and research. So those are two different routes you can pick, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, maybe I'll start with the data part, because so one of the findings that came out was and I don't think this will be a surprise to anyone here, but now we have the data to show that, you know, nps are really sort of going above, beyond, sideways, around these type of institutional strictures to get patients what they need.
Speaker 3:So, for example, nps that I, you know, observed and worked with, were doing things like leaving the clinic and going out to the encampment where their patient was living. Make sure they're getting their meds, make sure they're okay. You know that's not in their role, that's nowhere in the thing, but they're doing what they need to do. And then, on the flip side, you know, the Department of Public Health asks patients to fill out a patient satisfaction survey every year, and you know, this Department of Public Health routinely has pretty high satisfaction rates actually among patients, which is great. And so then that is then used as additional justification for the department to keep doing things the way that they're doing, because it's not really capturing what makes that satisfaction happen, which is that the NPs are doing things outside of those structures. So it becomes this sort of wild self-fulfilling cycle.
Speaker 4:It's interesting. It's almost like this is a new generation of like the frontier nursing service, but focused on psychiatry.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yes, exactly, very cool.
Speaker 4:Yeah, oh, sorry.
Speaker 5:Please go Like that works, but it puts a lot on the individual practitioners, you know, to go above and beyond, which of course they're doing anyway. Sorry, sean, that's can that's right.
Speaker 3:Well, and then and then I think that's part of it, melissa is when we look at what are the implications for us, what are the implications for workforce, you know, burnout, retention, um, all of those things.
Speaker 2:It's pretty dire actually that's the first word that came to my burnout.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah yeah, kate, I was. I was thinking. You know, one of the cool things you know, I'm presuming that there are some subset of our audience are individuals who are either registered nurses or soon to be advanced practice nurses, who are considering doctoral preparation. What would your elevator speech be for a graduate student who says I'm not really sure if I want to do DNP or PhD. What can you guide me through? What would you say to them?
Speaker 3:It's a million-dollar speech and this is from my viewpoint, so others may feel differently. I really see the DNP as a degree that prepares you to be a leader in the clinical environment. If you are a person who wants to make change at the institutional level, who wants to bring you know, do that knowledge, translation I think DNPs have a huge role in that Improve policies and processes and care within an organization or a system, or even a, you know, state government level. Potentially, I think that is a really really good track for you. If you are a person who you know wants to answer questions that there might not be answers to right now and, you know, investigate phenomena that we don't really, you know, have good data on, I think a PhD is something I would encourage you to think more clearly about.
Speaker 4:Awesome, Danny. How would you answer that question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would answer that question. Yeah, probably not as in-depth as you did, kate, but it really becomes in my mind. If you want a PhD I mean if you like your head in the clouds, if you like to be thinking like the next 10 years, where is healthcare going and what can I contribute today to add to that future, I think PhD is where you got to go. I mean, I think you need those skills to know how to set up a research design that's going to have good rigor and validation and all that good stuff, and so I think the PhD is there. If you want to kind of have more you know and again, I know we talk about population health with the DNP, but I still think a little bit of you know in serving populations and serving more micro care, helping people out, still want to kind of be in the, you know, in the clinic, seeing patients, even though I know PhDs are seeing patients as well. But yeah, I mean that's kind of where I see the differentiation and that translational care.
Speaker 2:I still, you know, I still don't think we utilize that model enough, of that PhD DNP model. It's just not well supported at this time. I don't think the systems, even in academia, we don't, you know, kind of do that because there's so much pressure for our tenure track to get. You know it's the you know. Publish or perish, it's the you know, you know it's. You gotta get all these grants written, you gotta get this huge, you know funding and all the blah blah blah. So yeah, that's it. Do you have a? Do you have a better answer, sean?
Speaker 4:I don't have a better answer. I have an appropriated answer from a mentor of mine who's no longer with us, dr Ann Hamrick, and she said you know, when I asked her this question back in 2003, I think she said it really comes down to your identity, sean. She said do you see yourself as a clinician first and then a leader second, then you need to be doing the DNP work. If you see yourself as a researcher first who's going to be building the body of knowledge over time, then you need to be a researcher. And she says and if you have no social life whatsoever, maybe you do both.
Speaker 2:Very well said. Yeah, I'm still fascinated with Melissa's question to you. You know how you sustained yourself through this. It got me thinking about you know. You may know I was kind of a, you know, coming out of high school I was a GI Bill baby and you know, went and got that and then when I came back out I was very kind of singularly focused that I wanted to go to grad school.
Speaker 2:And you know we've all, on this call you know, been through grad school. We all got our doctorate education. So when I was undergrad I was just very focused. But I remember very succinctly one of my professors kind of talking about that when she went and got her PhD. She almost got divorced because of the PhD and it just stuck with me. But I just kind of blew it off. You know, kind of just that denial like nah, it's not gonna happen to me. Um, but that happens, right. I mean, the work is is extensive, so, um, so yeah, I would love to kind of hear how you kind of kept your men own mental health buoyed and kind of, you know, steered the ship as you did yeah, well, thankfully my marriage is still intact, um, so that's great.
Speaker 3:And you know, I'm not sure that I have any real insight. You know, I think one thing, and this is perhaps a wild generalization, but you know, at least anecdotally, nurses to me tend to go back to school a bit later, you know, after they've had some experience under their belt and some life years under their belt, and and that brings its own challenges, right, I mean, I started the program when I was 39. And you know, doing an intensive program when you are in your early 40s and have all the things that comes with that is really different than doing school in your 20s. And so you know, I think, and so you know, I think I just really tried to keep my sights on this is a. I have a goal in mind. This is not going to last forever, so I can push, you know, for a certain period of time, and beyond that I'm not sure that I can keep pushing. So that timeline worked out for me. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:I'll do the same with Shonda Demean. Melissa, how did you, how do you get yourself through? How did you kind of survive your PhD?
Speaker 5:Well, first, I appreciate what you said, kate, because I went straight from undergrad to a doctoral program and I can't imagine, but know lots of people who have done it with other life responsibilities, so my experience was different. And friends cohort people like you, create your network and you lean on each other and we all need it, I would say that. And good mentors, which I did have, and if you don't have good mentors, finding someone else it's just a better match for what you need, whether they're officially your advisor or not.
Speaker 3:I couldn't agree more and I will. I will put an extra plug in for the mentors. I just want to say I think finding supervisors and mentors who are kind and supportive it cannot be overrated enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will answer that question too, for myself and Sean. You can kind of jump in after this too to kind of round it out but I've kind of done some thinking of how I did it it out. But I've kind of done some thinking of how I did it and again, had you know, yes, fortunately didn't lose the marriage and had a couple of kids. I remember kind of cradling my son, you know, at midnight trying to get him to sleep, and kind of finishing out a paper and things. That's, you know, I cherish those moments. But I think what I did is I just kind of narrowed my focus and so, socially, I, you know, it was really kind of a bit more withdrawn. I, I just kind of tuned in. I think, like you said, melissa, it really kind of, you know, leaned into my cohort.
Speaker 2:But but if it was, you know, it was a personal relationships. I, they, they kind of took a toll. And you know, now that I've been out of school now for, you know, got my doctorate in 2015. So it's, you know, it's been a couple of years I've found that I'm really craving that now. So, my personal relationships, I'm reaching out. I'm really kind of, you know, connecting with traveling. I didn't do any travel. When I I mean all that kind of you know stuff, I really didn't know. I liked travel and now I'm traveling a bunch. So it's an interesting kind of evolution too. So how about you, Sean?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So how about you, sean? Yeah, so everybody on the call knows me well enough to know that I'm part of a dual active duty family. So I think it was very intentional in when I went back to get my doctorate and it was right at the beginning when my wife was ready to schedule an 18-month deployment to Afghanistan. So I did that intentionally just to distract myself from the concerns associated with my wife being over there. So I literally doubled up on coursework and pushed through the program a little more efficiently just to keep myself really busy, so I could control for my risk of worry.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome, yeah, yeah. Millions of paths through this, right, but, but definitely so anything else to say or reflect on. Kate, you kind of knew this was coming. We were going to shine the spotlight on you and and again, just really admire to kind of the work that you've done and, and we'll continue to do, care for those people who don't have a voice, especially within the psych, mental health community. So any other thoughts, lasting thoughts, and we'll maybe transition to another topic here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just want to say thanks for the opportunity. I think this is such a great discussion and as we do move to more and more nurses becoming doctorally prepared and also just think about all of the issues that are facing us, that are facing our patients these days, I think you know, the more the merrier. So if there are any listeners out there who are on the fence, you know our emails are in the show notes. Feel free to contact me. Happy to chat.
Speaker 2:Thanks, kate, that's great. All right, let's fill up Kate's inbox no-transcript passion that we have for continuing to have psychotherapy within the role and hearing from our guests, which have been amazing and, like I said, we've got some really awesome, you know, world leaders, actually internationally. We got somebody from Canada that's recognized internationally for this kind of work. We're really excited to kind of have her on that upcoming episode. But you know this survey that we sent out not too long ago where we actually surveyed people who are in school right now in the PMHMP programs, recent alumni and then employers and so those three groups that we kind of interviewed to kind of triangulate these opinions on people PMHMPs doing psychotherapy.
Speaker 2:So what do you guys think? You know we were all kind of a part of that what is what's kind of your, some of your takeaways? Maybe we'll just kind of start there with. You know we're hoping to get this manuscript out, which, for those of you listening and are excited, you're just, you know you're one of us, but otherwise I know some people probably aren't going to dive into the nursing journals to get this. But yeah, I'd love to kind of hear what from the work we've been doing for the last you know couple of years now. What's your takeaway as far as that survey and what it said? Oh, this is an audio podcast, so I'm going'm gonna do some filler, so, uh. So springtime is nice, you know, it's uh, it's actually starting to warm up out here, and so I'm like I was gonna jump in because, like of course, I went to the measurements, right I love it.
Speaker 5:Yes, from the start that, yeah, you wanted to survey those three groups and get those three perspectives, and it was a nice collaborative process of developing the surveys too. So I think it was really solid in terms of having some multiple eyes on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'll start with the measurement and then we can go to the data know, and I agree I think it's like Kate mentioned that it's one of those areas you know when you get in practice. I just kind of have this assumption that someone's already kind of done this. You know, somebody's already kind of surveyed the mentors, the employers, of how they view, you know, utilizing PMH MPs and how they value psychotherapy. So I guess I thought it out that, no, it hadn't been done. So so, yeah, I like I, you know, thinking about for myself, I think I'm thinking about for myself, I think I'm most proud of that aspect and I'm excited to kind of get that out in the community, and so so, yeah, thanks, melissa.
Speaker 4:My thoughts were. I really found that the results kind of reinforced. Some provided some context as to why we struggle with polypharmacy in this country, pharmacy in this country, right, I mean, in many regards we have a well-researched skill set that is withering on the vine in our community, probably because of some larger systems changes in terms of how reimbursement is driven. But you know, as we were working on the manuscript, I was thinking, you know, this is why students are attracted to prescribing, this is why schools are downregulating teaching the programs, and this is also why one of the two credentialing bodies is not requiring psychotherapy as a required training element for board certification. So I do believe that PEPLA would be really, really disappointed today.
Speaker 2:Well, there goes one of our sponsor potentials there you go.
Speaker 4:Just kidding, John, I agree. Maybe they'll change their mind right? Maybe?
Speaker 2:Maybe. I hope that I really do. I couldn't. Yes, I agree with you 100% and that is a missing gap in our certification process. So, but yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about our survey and our manuscript results because I taught earlier this week and my students are approaching graduation next month, so they're reflecting on, you know, what are they going to do after graduation, and several of them mentioned that you know. Oh, I really hope that I can find a job where I can do psychotherapy as part of my practice, and I was like well, hold the phone, you can do that in any job, right, like it's not a binary here. Let's talk about some ways that you can integrate that in any visit that you're doing, that you can integrate that in any visit that you're doing, and so that was also. Sort of. Another dimension for me is, I think that people are thinking about this in a very black and white way.
Speaker 2:And we know that in practice that's not often how it works. Yeah, and I think it's. It's, and just to share to Kate, and I kind of presented this at the National Organization of Nurse Practitioner Faculty Conference a week or so ago in Denver and that was a great experience and had a room full of people that were interested in this and that was, I think, one of those things that was echoed in our discussions, which was great because we did have such a lively discussion about that. So it's, yeah, in our survey results we kind of I think we went after that we looked at, you know, where are you going to be practicing psychotherapy? It's, you know, again, some employers are a little more maybe accepting of this than others, but it's still a perception that students can't do this, they want to, they actually have to kind of do that a little more. So, all right, well, we're getting close to the end, so we'll kind of wrap up here Before we kind of log off, do you want to congratulate again Dr Kate Molino and also congratulate her national rankings Big time.
Speaker 2:You know, appreciate you sharing us. You know your time with us. It must be hard with all that big time. National rankings, what is it Number one, number two?
Speaker 3:We're number two. Thank you, Dan.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. University of California, san Francisco Congratulations. That's amazing. So, all right, well, again, thank you so much for listening, appreciate everybody and, yes, we're looking forward to having another episode out soon and continue it Again. If you're listening to this and you made it all the way to the end, congratulations. But if you're really interested in being a guest on this podcast, please reach out Again. I really want to try to push our filling up Kate's inbox, but you can also email any one of us about being a guest. We have definitely lots of slots available, so love to hear from you. So make sure you like, subscribe and comment for the podcast and we'll see you in a week or so. Outro Music.
