Peplau's Ghost
Psychiatric-Mental Health Nurse Practitioners (PMHNP) discussing using psychotherapy within their practice. Four PMHNP program directors and a biostatistician from across the Unites States sharing their passion on how psychotherapy can help people with nearly all their emotional problems.
Peplau's Ghost
A Tribute to Hildegard Peplau's Lasting Legacy with Dr. Kitty Buckwalter
Ever wondered about the driving force behind psychiatric mental health nursing? Join us as the remarkable Dr. Kathleen Kitty Buckwalter unravels her starstruck encounter with the legendary Hildegard Peplau. Dr. Buckwalter, alongside esteemed guests Dr. Sean Convoy from Duke University and Dr. Melissa Chapman, share their personal stories and insights, painting a vivid picture of Peplau's influential journey. Listen closely as Dr. Buckwalter reflects on her own impressive career in geropsychiatry and the parallels between her experiences and those of Peplau, offering a heartfelt tribute to the mother of psychiatric nursing.
Explore the lasting impact of Dr. Peplau's work and how her insightful blend of theory and practice continues to shape psychiatric nursing today. Despite her concerns about modern mental health care's limitations, Peplau's pioneering spirit and dedication shine through. Our guests share memories of a memorable conference at Rush University, revealing Peplau as a commanding yet approachable figure devoted to integrating psychiatry, medicine, and nursing seamlessly. Discover how her collaboration on a significant paper about duly certified nurse practitioners still resonates and influences current practices.
Celebrate the lighter moments in Peplau's life, from playful conference antics with her colleague Grace to her anonymous advocacy efforts in stroke care education. These stories not only highlight Peplau's generosity but also her unwavering commitment to advancing nursing. We delve into her innovative ideas, like the exhausting effect of vigilance, and how they remain relevant today. This episode is a heartfelt homage to Peplau's enduring legacy and a testament to how her teachings continue to inspire nurses to rise to the challenges of contemporary healthcare.
Let’s Connect
Dr Dan Wesemann
Email: daniel-wesemann@uiowa.edu
Website: https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/dnp-programs/psych-mental-health-nurse-practitioner
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-wesemann
Dr Kate Melino
Email: Katerina.Melino@ucsf.edu
Dr Sean Convoy
Email: sc585@duke.edu
Dr Kendra Delany
Email: Kendra@empowered-heart.com
Dr Melissa Chapman
Email: mchapman@pdastats.com
yeah, just my take on things. My answer number two welcome back everyone.
Speaker 2:Uh, thank you so much for tuning in to Peplow's Ghost. This is going to be an interesting episode. I'm glad you tuned in. I'm really excited about our guest that I'm going to get into introducing. It's going to be a very fun ride to kind of learn a little bit of history about Geropsych, the American Psychiatric Nurse Association, and actually meet. You have to talk to somebody who's met Hildegard Peplau. So, looking forward to this episode and really appreciate Dr Kitty Buckwalter here sharing her experience. I'm also joined, thankfully, by Dr Sean Convoy from Duke University and Dr Melissa Chapman who's continuously bringing in the non-nursing so we don't get too jargony in our conversation. So thank you so much and again, thank you all for listening. Tuning in, subscribing Haven't gotten any comments, so please feel free to leave comments for the episode.
Speaker 2:If you want to hear from someone else. We're making out a list of episodes coming up for the rest of the year, so let us know if you want to hear from somebody else. But let's get it to our honored guest, dr Kathleen Kitty Buckwalter. She wanted a very short bio but I'm trying to do it. But there's a lot to say about Dr Buckwalter here. So first off I'll say she got her master's degree in psych, mental health nursing from the University of Iowa. I think last night when we were talking you actually mentioned that you had gone to school with someone here kind of locally and we had her on the podcast last week Chris McCormick-Pree.
Speaker 3:Isn't that right? Yes, I couldn't remember. We were talking about Vera French. Yes, and she's been at, yeah, yep.
Speaker 2:So Chris was on the podcast last week and had a great time. You also got your PhD in nursing from the University of Illinois in Chicago. Had a great time. You also got your PhD in nursing from the University of Illinois in Chicago. I'm not mentioning years, but that was the time when there wasn't many PhD programs in nursing around, right?
Speaker 3:There were 10 in the whole country 10 in the whole country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, geez. This may be out of date, but best guess is you've written extensively, obviously mostly in geropsychiatry. I got 250 articles, 80 book chapters and eight edited books. Very humbling to kind of read that number. It's very impressive.
Speaker 2:2001, you were named the American Psychiatric Nurse Association's Excellent in Research Award winner. You were also named at the University of Iowa as Distinguished Alumni Award. You are a fellow in the American Academy of Nursing and in 2020, were actually elected as a living legend, and that's kind of a weird saying. I always think it's like you're alive. Congrats Always one of those morbid type of awards, but but again, well deserved. Only five, only five elected each year for that. So that's amazing.
Speaker 2:So again, as I like to start the podcast, usually since Kitty, I've known you for a long time. I think you were one of the people who wrote my recommendations for my master's program in psych, and so do you remember the first time that we met no in psych? And so do you remember the first time that we met no? So that's okay. I, I, you know it's one of those things that it was probably more impactful for me.
Speaker 2:I, what I remember, and and this is something that I want to probably maybe apologize for, because I was. I will say I was just a bit starstruck, but we were. What I remember is we were in a elevator in the college of nursing at at Iowa, riding up and you were asking me about things I was doing and kind of you know. I think at that time you were writing the recommendation for my MSN program and things and so. But I remember just kind of not kind of you know, not saying much, just kind of averting my eyes, just kind of again a little starstruck, and so I hope I wasn't off-putting in any way.
Speaker 3:But no, and I'll tell you, dan. That's exactly my reaction the first time I met Hilda.
Speaker 2:Oh well, there's a good transition then, so why don't we take it right there and there it says that's the real cool thing I think here is that you know our podcast. Obviously Pep Lau's Ghost is named after Hildegard Pep Lau, who's the mother of Psych, mental Health Nursing, and so to have somebody on the podcast who's actually seen her, talked to her, I think that's what we want to kind of hear from you. So what was your experience like meeting her and getting to know her?
Speaker 3:Well, I'd like to use this opportunity to reflect on the interactions I had with I'll call her Hilda because that's what we called her over many decades and in many forms, and the first was via letters, then in person at meetings and conferences, and then in some little-known literature where her voice as an advocate and teacher came through. And I say little-known because she was anonymous, but the author of the literature is a friend of mine, so I knew about it. I just want to share some personal anecdotes of maybe a different side of Hilda, and not to negate but to amplify, I think, the esteemed theorist and, as you said, mother of psychiatric nursing. But I want to present some different sides of her, I think.
Speaker 2:The human side. Yeah, human and fun, fun, yeah, you remember. I mean you were mentioning she was kind of an anonymous figure there, especially in the beginning, like probably all of us at our inner infancy professionally gear there, especially in the beginning, like probably all of us at our inner infancy professionally. What was something that drew you to her? Or was it just letter writing, like you said?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I'll start with when I was a doctoral student at the University of Illinois, as you mentioned, so this would have been the late 70s, and by way of background. So I was commuting by Greyhound bus for four years from Iowa because we couldn't afford a second car and paying out of state tuition in Illinois. I couldn't afford an apartment for sure, and so Illinois was on the quarter system and there were 10 people in my class and so every week for four years I lived with a different classmate, and one of those classmates was Olga Church. Olga Church became a nurse historian. She was on the faculty at the University of Connecticut for many years and I always loved staying at her house because she lived in Evanston. Her husband at the time was a professor at Northwestern, so it was a little upscale from some of the other places with my fellow doctoral students where I stayed. But when it was my turn to stay at Olga's house and I would take the 2 am bus in to get into Chicago by 8 and start classes all day, so I was there Monday, tuesday, wednesday and then Thursday after class I'd leave and come back to Iowa City and work 11 to 7 shifts at old psych hospital over the weekend.
Speaker 3:Anyway, olga and I were towards the end of our coursework and struggling to get our dissertations off the ground and when we were stuck, when we had essentially writer's block, we decided that we would write papers about history of psychiatric nursing, because that was her interest and her dissertation actually was called the Noble Reform the emergence of psychiatric nursing in the US from 1880 to 1963. We were taking a course from Teresa Christie, who was also on the faculty at Iowa but came to Illinois to teach a nursing history course, core course in our doctoral program. So it was part of our coursework and we identified two psychiatric nurses and this was actually the first paper I ever published. The first and third papers I ever published were with Olga, and the first one was Buckwalder and Church Euphemia, jane Taylor, an uncommon psychiatric nurse. You may not know Effie. She was known as Effie Taylor, but she was the first nurse to integrate psych nursing into the curriculum, both at Johns Hopkins and later at Yale, where she served as dean from 1934 to 1944. 1934 to 1944. She was probably best known, however, for her presidency of the International Council of Nurses from 1937 to 1947. But she did some really pioneering things in psych nursing. So we started out wanting to find out about her and to write about her. So that was the very first paper we published in Perspectives in Psychiatric Nursing and that was, oh, 1979, we published that. The second paper was Church and Buckwaller, 1980, harriet Bailey, a psychiatric nurse, pioneer also in Perspectives in Psychiatric Care, and she was the nurse who wrote the first psychiatric nursing textbook called Nursing Mental Disease in 1920.
Speaker 3:And I want to read to you from a paper that Olga published in 2000 in Japna, the Journal of the Psychiatric Nurses Association, and the title of the paper is Hildegard E Peplau's Leadership and Achievements in the Advance of Psychiatric Nursing the Right Person in the Right Time and Place. So she's describing our efforts to develop these papers, to develop these papers. And the second paragraph in this paper is called Explorations into the Development of Psychiatric Nursing and I'm quoting here. Now, 20 years ago, two eager and enthusiastic doctoral students that was, olga and myself gathered their courage together to write a letter of inquiry to Dr Peplau in search of information for an article. They together to write a letter of inquiry to Dr Peplau in search of information for an article they hoped to write Within days. We received it was actually six, because it was three pages, both sides handwritten pages, full of suggestions, a list of nine different sources and resources, complete with names and addresses. She ended this encouraging response with the comment wish I could be more helpful. And then Olga, being a historian, has cited that as personal communication. October 12th 1979, letter to Buckwalder in church from HE Peplow, found in the author's collection. Because I gave the letter to Olga, knowing her career sites, I wish now I'd kept a copy for myself, but I didn't. And then Olga's comment and I would echo this is I have since found that was a typical response from this wise, wise and generous, scholarly and complex woman. And so that is really how Olga got her start on a lifelong career as a nurse.
Speaker 3:Historian focused a lot on peplau and he birds as a psychiatric nursing.
Speaker 3:But also it was my first encounter with Peplau.
Speaker 3:We wrote a lot of others and I want to other famous people at the time who had interacted with either Harriet Bailey or Effie Taylor on the East Coast Teachers College, rutgers really the bastions of psychiatric nursing at the time Phipps Clinic, johns Hopkins and Yale the biggest and best response we got was Peplau and it shaped me in many ways.
Speaker 3:First of all it started my lifelong kind of awe of her as a person, because here she was really at the peak of her career in the 70s and taking the time to not just write back a letter but to send resources and the names and the addresses so we could. It would be easiest for us to go on and do our research. So that had a professional impression on me, but also a personal impression that over the years I've heard from students lots of times, some of them ridiculous, like send me everything you've ever written about dementia or that sort of thing. But I've tried to be kind and generous and to emulate Dr Peplau in being responsive to students because you you never know what kind of impact good or bad that may have.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. So now.
Speaker 3:I just want to read a little bit from the first pages of our article on Harriet Bailey, which we published in Perspectives in 1980. So we were having a terrible time finding out any information about Harriet Bailey. We went to the Maine Nurses Association because she had practiced in Maine. No record of her existence. We looked in the New York Times and her obituary. We consulted people, including Teresa Christie, who gave us access to proceedings of the National League for Nursing Education, and we just hit one dead end after another, in which you know you've got enough of those as a doctoral student anyway.
Speaker 3:But undaunted and I'm starting to quote here now, and this is written by Olga and myself, despite the constraints of time and money to which we were subject as doctoral candidates, our search was underway. Olga actually traveled to the East Coast, to the National Nursing Archives of Boston University, as I said, the Maine State Nurses Association. All kind of dead ends. Then we launched this comprehensive letter writing campaign to early leaders in psychiatric nursing and nursing education, as well as to librarians and activists. And here's the key part At the suggestion of Dr Hildegard E Peplau and this was that letter she wrote to us that I talked about earlier we submitted requests for information to various nursing journals. Together, some 20 individuals and institutions were queried, and it was based on those suggestions from PEPLOW that we were able to gather sufficient information to be able to publish those two early articles.
Speaker 2:You know, and this is great. I mean I hate to kind of disrupt your flow right now, but you know, as you were, as you were describing that article about how she described Hilda, you know, as complex. That's an interesting term I guess I hadn't thought of and maybe you're going to get to that. But I'm wondering, melissa or Sean, do you have any questions at this time at this? Maybe kind of take a little.
Speaker 4:Dan, you go to your question. I like the direction you're taking in terms of complexity and I've got one to follow up afterwards.
Speaker 3:Okay, I can respond to why I think she used the word complex. It's because she was, on the one hand, a brilliant theoretician, but she was very pragmatic in terms of her application. It was a theory that you could, as a psychiatric nurse, you could relate to, you could use. It made sense, and so there was a complexity in that, also in her personality. She had a very commanding presence.
Speaker 3:I mean, like I said, I was awestruck for a while, but she also could be goofy and I'll relate some incidents of that are not really goofy, but she could have fun and laugh and she was generous and kind, but she could put you down. She was generous and kind but she could put you down. If you and I observed this in conferences and stuff and if you ask a question that she felt was irrelevant or inappropriate, she would say you know you're not thinking right here, You're not reflecting on what the patient said to you as a nurse or that sort of thing. So she was kind and generous, but she also had very high standards, so she didn't suffer any fools.
Speaker 3:That's exactly right, yeah, I admire that quality.
Speaker 2:I mean that's yeah, that's not bad.
Speaker 3:Complexity comes in.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that perspective. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, kitty, I'll ask. I'm fascinated. You're going to call her Hilda, but I'm still going to call her Dr Feplow. I'm trying to get you to perhaps read her mind a little bit. What do you think she'd say Like, do you think she's satisfied with the current state of both psychiatric nursing as well as advanced practice psychiatric mental health nursing at present?
Speaker 3:the psychiatric, mental health person in the present, I say no, it's too much on. Um, okay, you're depressed? Uh, what's the best antidepressant we can prescribe for you? There's not enough of the therapeutic interpersonal work that she uh championed going on today. Part of that is reimbursement issues, time constraints for doing therapy. But I think she would say, guys, you're missing the boat. And one of the things I'm going to talk about at the very end is how she still influenced my professional life in a paper that Tess Judge Ellis and I published in November of 2024. It was really on duly certified nurse practitioners, primary care and psych, and it was in a case study with substance use in a housing first environment, and what we did was to talk about the combination of psychiatry and medicine and nursing and how, in this case study, yes, there were physical things, stranger roles and in her theory and how blending the two, I believe, leads to optimal outcomes Excellent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you're telling me that Pep Lau's ghost is not happy right now, right?
Speaker 3:I would think not, and she would probably be the first if she were able to tell us.
Speaker 4:So thank you very much for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I didn't want to get in your flow. I think you're getting into more kind of anecdotes and kind of describing her a little bit.
Speaker 3:Quick anecdotes here. So my next in-person encounter with her was at Rush and this was in the late 1980s. So I had finished my master's in psych mental health nursing at Iowa, got my doctorate in 1980 at Illinois, in 1980 at Illinois and then from 83 to 86, I did a career development award at a ward at NIMH in geropsychiatric nursing and it was following that that I and it was a budding, as you heard last night subspecialty but not a whole lot going on. But at Rush Karen Babbage was there. You know that name from history. Oh she, she along with Grace Sills, one of the big founders of APNA, and she was head of psych nursing at Rush at the at the time and she and I became fast friends at the time. And she and I became fast friends and I also went to Rush a lot because they had a setting called JR Bowman Healthcare Center for the Elderly, so it was a geropsych mini hospital within the Rush complex and there I could practice and do research in my subspecialty and Karen facilitated that and I, and so I was at Rush a lot and Luther Crispin was the head of the program at Rush himself, kind of one of those godlike figures who did so much for diversity within the nursing profession.
Speaker 3:But he hosted at Rush a psychiatric nursing conference and Hilda was one of the invitees who spoke and that sort of thing, and it was not a stand at the podium speak to a crowd of thousands. It was a fairly intimate setting. It was a select invitee list and we were around a table and then some chairs in a room. So it was intimate actually. And the anecdote I want to share with you is I always found Hilda to be very poised in her comportment and demeanor, but at lunch she and Luther sat next to each other and we're telling stories about their early years of being psychiatric nurses, like in the 1930s and stuff, and talking about the horrible things that we visited upon patients and hypoglycemic shock, insulin therapy, hydrotherapy, electric shock and psychosurgery were their discussion and they were absolutely laughing out loud, just almost kind of like hooting, about what we used to do to people and how long you know we've come a long way, baby, sort of thing, and brought it back to the conference and the ladies and what we were doing now. Back to the conference and the ladies and what we were doing now. But I had never seen her with an esteemed colleague, the two of them just laughing and reminiscing about their early days. And I tell you I would have absolutely killed to have had a tape recorder hidden in my blouse or something so I could have recorded their conversation. I took a few notes and that's where I it was just what they were talking about. So I'm confident in the veracity of hypoglycemic shock and insulin therapy and all that sort of stuff that they were talking about. But it was the first time I'd really seen a different side of her and I wanted to share that with you. So she could really let her hair down, so to speak, and she was comfortable with her close colleagues. And that leads me to the incident with Grace Grace Sills, who was head of psych nursing at Ohio State University and one of the founders of APNA Fabulous person, psych nurse herself, just I don't know, just so pleasant and enjoyable a person to be around. So she and Hilda were fast friends and they had been both of them. Of course Hilda was influential in both the ANA American Nurses Association and APNA, but Grace was primarily focused on APNA and in the early years.
Speaker 3:I was very involved in my early years in APNA and I was I think I was head of the research committee. I was certainly on the newly established research committee and we were, you know, struggling. We wanted to raise money for a grants. You know that. Not, I'm not talking hundreds of thousands, I'm talking 3000 or, you know, three, maybe to five, to get something going in terms of nursing research. I also started the first geropsychiatric interest group within APNA many, many years ago, but anyway, hilda and Grace had been gambling in Las Vegas on vacation. Grace had been gambling in Las Vegas on vacation and I'm not sure which one, but I think it was. Hilda hit the jackpot and I'm talking big bucks here, like hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know the exact amount.
Speaker 3:But again, this gets back to that characterization of her as a generous person. One of the things that they did at like a plenary session of the next APNA was to say we're going to match, dollar for dollar, everyone who contributes to ANA and in particular the research fund, and so. But they did it with like costumes and music and streamers and confetti and it made it a joyous occasion. Another anecdote I guess that reflects the not so serious side of both of them, but the advocacy do good inside for nursing of both Grayson and Hildegard. So if you they say, whatever you want to contribute, hold it up and we'll come around and we'll match. So if you'd hold up a $20 bill, they'd come around, take your $20 bill and they had like a bag or something, they'd put another 20 with it and that went in the APNA fund. So that was something that was really memorable. I don't know how many people even remember that conference. I can't tell you the exact date, but I sure remember that event because they made it that memorable.
Speaker 2:Did you? You said, was Hildegard dressed up? Do you remember the costume she was wearing?
Speaker 3:I remember Grace's big hat on and that sort of thing. I don't remember hers.
Speaker 3:OK and that sort of thing. I don't remember hers Okay, but it was. I wish I had paid better attention, but at the time I wasn't thinking about that. Good question though.
Speaker 3:So the next thing I wanted to say about Hilda reflects that even in later life and I'm talking, oh, 90s, 1990s, so within 10 years of her death that she remained an advocate and a teacher. She remained an advocate and a teacher, and to support that, I want to share with you not details, because Hilda wished to remain anonymous in this, but she shared with a colleague of mine who is a neuroscience nurse her experiences of having a stroke in the early 90s and the author, my friend. The author wrote these reflections chronicle the experience of a retired nurse educator. That was Hilda, who had a stroke and shared her experiences with the author. And then she talks about. The format of this paper alternates between the first person remembrances of the nurse who had a stroke and the author's analysis of the nurse's experience, and so, although she was never named here, it is her, and she gives a critique of her care, not all of it flattering in her first-person narrative, in fact, in some cases highly critical, as she was initially. So this was 1990, 91, around there about eight or nine years before she died.
Speaker 3:She was angry. She was angry about having a stroke and she sought to understand what happened to her and she felt she wasn't well-informed and she didn't think that nursing played a large enough role in her education as a stroke patient and in helping to create a path for her recovery. She did a lot of reading on her own and what exercises to do and that sort of thing, so she was critical of that. Probably the most important thing she said in this article was recounting her feelings that her perceptions were not considered important. And you know where that comes from Always listen to the patient and what they have to say. So it was like well, she expounded this theoretical framework early on.
Speaker 3:Now she was living it personally, but as a patient who's and as a knowledgeable patient whose experiences weren't being listened to or considered. She also used this experience to develop a concept called I don't know if you was her left side or right side that was affected was doing and how was she able to clasp her hands together, and what a psychologically exhausting experience this was for patients and how the nurses weren't even aware of this. They didn't ask about it. Nurses and physicians both they didn't ask about it nurses and physicians both and how that affected the recovery process of people who'd had a stroke. So I think she essentially and the author just confirms that she came up with what we would call now a new nursing diagnosis.
Speaker 3:If you believe in Nanda, nick and Knock, then the exhausting effect of vigilance would be a nursing diagnosis and I think one that is perhaps translatable to a lot of chronic illnesses to people who have. I mean you look at long COVID now the exhausting effects of that. So it's a remarkable paper. I think it's little read. It wasn't published in a popular journal that even in her later years, in her eighth decade of life, that she was still observing nurse-patient interactions, still commenting upon them, still teaching and still being an advocate for patients.
Speaker 3:So that's why I wanted to bring up this article, because I don't think it's well-known. Have any of you heard of it?
Speaker 2:No, no, yeah, so. So, Kenny, thank you again. I mean I think this shows a great arc of our person that again we we try to honor with this podcast. And yeah, I just anymore, if it's OK, maybe we can kind of. Sean, do you have have any?
Speaker 3:or, unless you got any questions before we get time, uh, can I just wrap up with one thing after you give give your question, go ahead, sean sure I don't have a question, but I just have a comment.
Speaker 4:I'm so grateful that you shared the story about dr peplau's gambling exploits. Yeah, we're telling the story. Yeah, it's kind of fitting to highlight it, because we hit the lottery through her advocacy and stewardship of our yes, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3:And and she, she shared her bounty in so many ways.
Speaker 5:Yeah, um, you know, as someone, external, as someone external to the field, and just thinking about my own field, hearing the power, power of like these stories and anecdotes and how like these professional organizations came to be, it's just mind blowing because it happens so often and then we forget our histories, even though it's really not that long of a history. So thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3:Oh, you're welcome. It was my pleasure and I just if I can have a concluding comment is there time, dan, for that? I guess my point would be Hildegard Peplau. Dr Peplau has influenced my professional life for decades, starting in the 70s.
Speaker 3:Judge Ellis was the first author on I was her co-author.
Speaker 3:That was published just last November in the Journal of Nurse Practitioners and it was entitled A Duly Certified Nurse Practitioner in a Housing First Location. Nurse practitioner in a housing first location, where we give examples of PEPLAW's nursing roles in a housing first clinic. So how did the case study that's presented exemplify the stranger role or the teaching role or that sort of thing? So for me she has been a professional presence in my life since I was a doctoral student when she wrote back to us and supplied such wonderful information that really helped us get our first publications until the present of her seminal theory to the work that's being done today in really unique settings by psychiatric nurses and different populations. And she probably, I mean, wasn't thinking about housing first because it didn't exist then for homeless and substance using chronically mentally ill people, homeless and substance using chronically mentally ill people. But it's still relevant today and that's just amazing to me, and so I feel so grateful to have met her, to have learned from her and to be able to apply that learning in my own career.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you. Thank you, kitty, so much for sharing your experiences. I, you know the the. The phrase that kept rolling through my head is you never know. When you create a memory, it's you know, these, these interactions that you have, and again, with you and Hildegard Peplau, I mean, there's probably hundreds, if not thousands, of other types of things that the tentacles of her influence you know continue to. There's types of things that the tentacles of her influence you know continue to, um, perservate throughout our profession, which is, again, as you said, I, I, you know I think we're all probably in agreement here that she would be a little bit ashamed of where our profession is going right now as psych, mental health nurses, um, and it's kind of draw towards medical model and uh, and it's overemphasis, but uh, hopefully she won't be or she would not be upset about this podcast and how we try to pay homage to it.
Speaker 3:Maybe we should all get sweatshirts that say bring back.
Speaker 2:Peplow Well we're working on an article.
Speaker 3:Maybe that's the title too.
Speaker 2:What would Peplow say? Yeah, we get little wristbands. That's what we need too, so awesome. Well, thank you again for those listening and please stay tuned. We've got uh future episodes coming ahead when uh exciting new people um get to learn about their practice and such. But again, thank you very much for uh dr kitty buck walter for joining us and uh tune in next time. We'll have another episode soon, take care I'm honored to have been invited. Thanks, after dark with peplow's ghost for me or for yeah, yeah for everybody.
Speaker 2:Just yeah. What was that experience? Like you, uh, you press, repress record I know I was trying to be sneaky, I so we were trying to do this kind of you know, after the podcast type of thing to kind of debrief.
Speaker 3:No, you're good well, I will say for me this is one of one of the best experiences I've had in a long time because it helped me reflect back on a wonderful time when I was just, you know, really growing as a psychiatric nurse, to have known these wonderful leaders, to have had classmates like Olga, and it just brought back so many wonderful memories and I feel so grateful to have had that in my life.
Speaker 2:I know it's the selfishness of me whenever I start the podcast, asking a lot of people if they remember the first time, because I think you know, obviously we focus a lot on the last time we see somebody, unfortunately, when they pass or they transition and so or they just kind of leave our lives.
Speaker 2:But you know that first time. And again, I you know you see this in movies called meet cutes. You know how people could? We meet people all the time, but some people were drawn to, some people we connect with and and we form lifelong relationships with and with, and we form lifelong relationships with, and it's still a mystery to me why we do that for some people and other people. You know, yeah, it was good to meet you, but, moving on to other things, so but thank you for being one of those people, kitty, that you continue to be a part of my life, and Sean and Melissa too. It's been a privilege to get to continue doing this type of work, even though we still can't get funding for it. Maybe, who knows, in the future, but we'll get some ads, Maybe we'll get Prozac to sponsor us, not after my comment I don't think, but we'll see.
Speaker 3:And you're absolutely right.
Speaker 3:So much about the history is lost, you know, because people took it to the grave, and so part of doing this has just really triggered in me I need, we need to write. We, being my colleagues who helped to develop subspecialty of geropsychiatric nursing, need to write down that history and the early leaders and the people whose shoulders we stood on, because it'll be lost. And I did have a similar experience with does anybody know Irene Burnside? She was the grandmother of she. She championed group therapy for older adults who are institutionalized, if you can believe that.
Speaker 3:And she spoke at Iowa and I was teaching a course in our doctoral program at Iowa called geriatric mental health research, and none of my students. She came to the Knoxville VA to talk and none of my students had even heard of her. Came to the Knoxville VA to talk and none of my students had even heard of her and I was like horrified because she was like she was like right up there with peplum to me as a gerostatic nurse and um, so uh, I ended up with one of my doctoral students doing an oral history with her and writing, uh, publishing about her many contributions to nursing which I don't know, if there's any. I know her papers she gave to Texas Women's University, where she got her doctorate at age 67, just having been recovered from breast cancer. Amazing woman. But she was the one who said the elderly, even those in the back wards of our psychiatric institutions, the asylums essentially of the day, have something to say and we need to let them say it.
Speaker 4:Queen of agency.
Speaker 3:Huh.
Speaker 4:The queen of agency.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4:The queen of agency. Yeah, that's right. That's right, Dan. You're talking about getting Prozac or Eli Lilly to sponsor us. If that happens, the day that happens, the title of that podcast needs to be called Irony Deficiency, irony Defined.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know Right, can you imagine? All right, well, thanks, everybody Appreciate this time. And yeah, we've got future.
Speaker 1:I'll, I'll let you know, kitty when it's true, work hard until those thoughts are finally leaving so you can be you. They feel it. Therefore, it's true Work hard until those thoughts are finally leaving so you can be you, god of discovery, identifying, challenging your beliefs, reframing your mind.